Discipline and AbolishA dialogue about writing, power, and mass incarceration Caleb Smith (bio) and Rachel Kushner (bio) Over the past two decades, Rachel Kushner has earned a reputation as a writer of strikingly memorable, keenly drawn, and exhaustively imagined characters. Each of her three novels—Telex from Cuba (2008), The Flamethrowers (2013), and The Mars Room (2018)—revolves around people who are often underrepresented within the spaces of American literary culture, from convicts and bikers to agricultural executives and prison guards, and the force of their personalities is the propellant that moves the plot vigorously forward. Her new essay collection, The [End Page 85] Hard Crowd: Essays, 2000–2020, is as richly peopled as her works of fiction, and as obsessed with systems of power, iconoclastic art, and carceral politics. Caleb Smith, a professor of English and American Studies at Yale University and a longtime friend of Kushner’s, is a scholar of the American criminal justice system, the author of two books of nonfiction—including The Prison and the American Imagination (2009)—and the person to whom Kushner often turns to discuss the ethics and histories of incarceration. The two first encountered each other at BOMB magazine, where both worked, in 2001. They spoke on Zoom in April, Kushner from a residency in rural Wyoming, Smith from New Haven, and revisited the dialogue afterward over email. Their conversation touched on novelistic prose and the economics of the prison system. —the editors ________ caleb smith Making my way through The Hard Crowd, I felt almost like I was getting to follow the development of your sensibility. There is your childhood in an unconventional family, with beatnik parents who would go on to become scientists, and then there are the coming-of-age years in the underground world of Bay Area bars and rock clubs. There are passages about moving to New York, writing about the arts, and in the title essay you reflect on how memory shapes your novels. Throughout, you have a way of finding the personal detail that makes each character feel strange and real, full of charisma and a kind of complicated glamor that has nothing to do with fame. Of course I was especially inclined to read the book in a personal light, since the twenty years you name in your subtitle, 2000 to 2020, basically tally the span of our friendship. rachel kushner Yes, twenty years, the friendship with you and the span of this collection almost perfectly overlapping! It’s surprising [End Page 86] to me now, looking back, the directions we each went in life, since that era when we first met. You’re a professor of literature, and I’m a published author, and so many of our interests have converged over the years, almost in eerie ways. And yet our experiences together two decades back didn’t exactly anticipate our respective futures. At BOMB, we were both still trying to figure out our niche. At the time, I didn’t feel confident yet about my own writing, or imagine myself into the New York literary world. You and I bonded immediately, but it wasn’t over shared ambition; we bonded over our amusements, which sometimes derived from encountering the actual people behind the books or the visual art; their demeanor, whether gracious or neurotic, and what they had to say, surprising, or not. Looking back into the deep past, I see such continuity in terms of the worlds we’ve each explored in our own work, and how all of that dilates both fast and slow, with other people who were there for our lives as they unfolded and transformed. It was actually because of that job at BOMB that I wrote “Girl on a Motorcycle,” which is the first essay in The Hard Crowd and was the first essay I ever published. (It was collected in an anthology called She’s a Bad Motorcycle: Writers on Riding.) I think I’d been an interviewer for BOMB and needed a bio for the contributor’s page, but because I hadn’t done anything worth noting, I did that obnoxious thing where you’re like, “So-and-so has worked...
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